Lead with Rest, Parent with Presence: Faith-Filled Leadership with Vance Pitman (Pt. 1)

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Welcome to One Life, the podcast where we embrace the journey of living fully and intentionally in every area of life. My name is Matt Farnham. And while I don't have it all figured out, I'm walking this journey with you, convinced we don't have to choose between a thriving career and thriving relationships, health, and purpose. This isn't about perfection, it's about progress. And together we'll explore how to create work-life harmony, reject the lies of comparison, steward our gifts,

and embrace the life God desires for all of us. Let's build a fulfilling life, a life that honors your faith, strengthens your family, grows your business, and leaves a legacy that matters. Welcome to One Life. Well, welcome back to the One Life podcast. Thank you again for listening and being a part of our One Life community. So this episode is super, super special for two reasons. ⁓ First reason, because this is the first episode with a guest.

But more specifically number two, because of who the guest is. So recently I've shared with you some of my journey and my story. We kind of launched this podcast in the vision. But my guest today is somebody who's had a huge influence on me in all the areas we've been talking about. Very much personal effect on my faith journey, my philosophy when it comes to family and marriage and purpose and all the things that this podcast is gonna be about. So I am super excited to share him with you today. So Vance Pittman is with us here today.

Vance Pittman is the president of SIN Network. He's the founding pastor of Hope Church here in Las Vegas and author of two fantastic books. As the leader of the largest church planning organization in North America, Vance seeks to inspire people to join in God's eternal redemptive mission of making disciples by multiplying the church all over North America that the nations may come to know him. Vance and his wife, Christy, have four adult children and some grandchildren. Yes, we do.

and live in Georgia. So, man, thanks for being here, Vance. Super excited to have you,

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Matt, it is incredibly exciting to get to do this with you. ⁓ In the role that I'm in, I get to do these kinds of things quite often, but I don't often get to do them in a way that is ⁓ just as rewarding and personally edifying as this, because I've known you and your family for, gosh, close to 25 years, I guess now.

to watch the journey of what God has done. When I met you, you were in college and unmarried, single, wild-eyed, what's the future gonna hold? And now to see you today and the role that you're in, the family that you have, the business that you have, the way God's using you and the way you're leveraging your life, your job skill and passion where you live, work and play for His glory and the expansion of His kingdom. This is like a mountain top moment for me. It's awesome, man. It's an honor to get to do this with you.

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Well, I am grateful. It means a lot to me too. And I've shared with you, it's cool. Like, ⁓ thank you for that little commercial you just gave for me too. it's cool how your influence on me has now truthfully gone all over the country with different things that I'm leading nationally, like Rooted, you know about that faith-based meetup we do at our real estate conferences. it's full circle. I was on your podcast years ago, your advanced leadership, ⁓ Vance Pittman Leadership Podcast. That was special.

So I just gave this beautiful bio on you with your impact and your leadership, but you're here because of the influence on me personally. My faith, my leadership, my family ⁓ impact, all the things that I think ⁓ I desire to be and see in my life, highly influenced by you. And I would go far to say is the biggest influence anybody's ever had on me. that's why you're here. ⁓ So again, welcome to the One Life Podcast, Vance. First time I get to say that.

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It's an honor to get to be first. And I mean, what you just shared is really a powerful principle that I hope your listeners don't miss. Like a lot of times we only focus on the crowds. When you think about leadership, business, pastoring, marketplace, whatever it is, it's all about the crowds, about giving you the crowds. But Jesus often walked away from the crowds to focus on the individual. Jesus focused more on succession than he did on success.

at the end of three and a half years of public ministry, he only had 120 followers. That wouldn't have gotten him invited to anybody's podcast. That wouldn't have got him to be the keynote speaker at any conference. But that 120 became 120,000 within a matter of months because he'd intentionally poured into them. And so the power of investing in the life of another person, you just don't understand the ripple effects of that into eternity. so, man, to get to

Poor Indo guy. just, I know you were very kind in the words that you use. I mean, I feel like I just did a little bit of investing in your life, but to now see the platform God's given you the way that he's using you and to have a small part in that is really awesome.

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Well, one-on-one conversations, you know, there's so many of those, but sitting under your teaching for 20 years, that's the influence that you probably don't even realize. ⁓ man, that's good. So, you know that this podcast is, One Life is all about this desire for the realtor, the entrepreneur to find harmony between work and life. And that's all the things that we're gonna talk about today is really in line with that. But before we get started on that, just an icebreaker for you. What's something simple right now in your life that's just bringing you joy?

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Yeah.

So

funny story, last night I'm on the plane flying here, ⁓ cause we've, we've come into town this weekend. We're taking the kid, the grandkids to some hockey games. And so it worked out for me to get to do this with you in person. Cause I don't live in Las Vegas anymore. ⁓ so I'm on the plane and I'm looking at this, this sheet that you'd sent me is kind of prep questions. And my wife is reading over my shoulder on the plane. And she saw this first question, something simple that brings you joy. And her, she looks at me and said,

Well, that's an easy question for you. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, it's. ⁓

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me. That

you're going to say because you've been upgraded to first class. ⁓

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That didn't hurt either. were sitting in first as we had been upgraded. When you got 2 million miles with Delta, they take care of you. But, we, ⁓ she looks at me and says, well, that's an easy answer to me. And it's kind of funny because as I thought about it, that really is the answer. And what I mean by that is we've just begun a new season of life. You, you said it in the intro. have four adult kids that are now all married, which means they're off payroll. Like they're doing their own thing. They're living their life. which means my wife and I have begun a new season. We're in a new season of emptiness.

And we really never got to experience that because we got married at 20 and 19, and then we got pregnant three months into getting married. And so all we've known for our entire married life of 32 years is kids, ⁓ and, our lives revolving around them. This is the first time in our life that we have a relationship that doesn't revolve around the kids and the family and everything that's going on. And we are having a blast.

like ⁓ new rhythms, ⁓ new building new, because we also relocated to a new city. And that's actually been really cool to get to start this new season in a new place with new people. Because before a lot of our relationships revolved around our kids. And now we're building relationships with people strictly based on our wants, needs, interests, likes, things we want to do. ⁓ And it's just been a blast, man. Date nights are happening all the time. You know, it's just,

That has just brought us so much joy to get to this season and be at a place, both relationally, spiritually where we are, where we're just thriving in this season and really, really enjoying it together. That's.

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I always say to Leslie my favorite thing in my life is to experience new things with my wife. Yes. Traveling new cities, but that is fun this new season in a new city. It is. there's a lot of firsts right now.

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It is, it is. And the cool thing, you know, we live in Atlanta now. So Atlanta, I lived in Vegas 25 years and Vegas is a city that grew and consumed desert. every time it grew as a city, it built and added on this new part of the city. Atlanta has grown and consumed rural communities. And so Atlanta is a collection of all these rural Marietta Woodstock, Canton, Alpharetta, Holly Springs.

And all these little downtowns have these like, it's the coolest vibe. Like it's like watching sweet home, Alabama, the movie, all these little downtown vibes with mom and pop restaurants. And they got the lights strung across the city and these little down to, so we could literally date night in a different little town square and Vegas. got a cool town square, but it's one they built there. All these town squares are like, they've been there 150 years.

And it's, it's just, it's given us just a lot of, I mean, we feel like we're kids again. Like we're just having a blast.

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When you get date night at Battery Park every so often too. Atlanta Braves fans. Exactly. For those listeners. So, well, cool man. Well, let's get into it. So where I want to start the conversation today, again, our audience is realtors, entrepreneurs, business leaders and so forth. But you know, our God created everything that we can see, taste, touch or feel. That's right. God is the ultimate entrepreneur. You think about the creation mandate in Genesis, like he called us to work. He mandated work. I believe that

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Right. ⁓

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excellence, I believe that hard work, I believe those things are honoring to God. You know, the Bible has plenty of scripture about hard work, wise planning, working to the Lord. But on the other end, Proverbs 23, four and five says this, don't wear yourself out trying to get rich, be wise enough to know when to quit. So therein lies the tension for our listener. Yeah, the entrepreneur that the realtor that the high performer is finding balance between those two things. Again, on one end,

I want to steward the time, talents, resources, gifting that I've been entrusted with ⁓ and create excellence and hard work. But on the other end, be wise enough to know when to quit. you know, thinking about you, Vance, you've achieved a lot running huge organizations, lots of impact, global impact, eternal impact. ⁓ Speaking on stages all over the world, many, many podcasts, all the things that you do author of multiple books. But yet I know you do still have thriving relationships in your life. So my question for you,

is how do we know when our hard work is honoring God versus when we've crossed the line into striving for success in a way that wears us out or pulls us away from what truly matters.

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I want to answer that question, but before I do, I want to pick up on something you said and just make a point because I think, I think in the world of Christianity, which is, I know we have listeners that are believers, listeners that aren't, but that's the kind of the worldview you and I come from. There's a word that has begun to be so used in the church that we assume it's a biblical word and it's the word excellence. I don't think you'll find verses in scripture where God calls us to excellence. What he calls us to is diligence.

Diligence is the biblical word. Diligence means with what he's given to me, I'm to do everything I can in dependence on him to use that for his glory, to steward it to the very best of my ability. Excellence, when we use that word, often draws a line that allows many people to feel like they can't participate because a lot of people don't see themselves as excellent. And let's just be honest, there are very few of us that are.

excellent, but we can all be diligent. We can all, with the tools and resources that he's entrusted to us, do the absolute most with what he's given. And that's what God expects of us, is diligence. That's what he wants from us, is to, with everything he's entrusted to us, get the most out of that for his glory and for our good. ⁓ So, side note, I didn't mean to, I don't want to, but that's just, I think that's an important point because a lot of people hear the word excellence and immediately think,

Well, I'm not qualified, right? Because I'm not, and to be honest, we all got so much brokenness and so much baggage. Excellence can, but diligence, I can do my very best today with what he's given to me to steward that for his glory. but ⁓ you asked the question, man, how do we know when we've crossed the line of striving for success in a way that wears us out? How do we know when we've gone too far? And for me, as I thought about that, I like to ask three questions. Number one,

is my perspective right. And by that, I mean my perspective towards work and rest. It is true. We just talked about it. God commands hard work in the Bible. God says that he honors those that are diligent, those that are doing their very best. But it's also true that rest is a spiritual principle in the Bible. And for a lot of my life, Matt, I thought rest is what I did when I got to heaven.

that now I work, then I rest. And I almost work like a badge of honor that I didn't have time to rest. But if you think about it, God gave us 10 commandments. One of the big 10 is about rest. God modeled this. created the word. You said it. He's the ultimate entrepreneur. Created everything we can see, taste, touch, smell in six days. And on the seventh day he rested. Like if God rested,

Probably a good idea that I and my human frailty and finiteness build some rest into my life, right? ⁓ rest is also spiritual. Rest is also valuable. Jesus modeled and commanded rest. And I'm going to talk about Jesus some today on this podcast, obviously because I'm a follower of Jesus, but also because I think even if you're not a follower of Jesus, you got to

e history of the world. mean,: 2000

This is Mark 6, 30 and 31 and told him all they'd done and taught. It's like they were proud to say, Lord, look at all this that we've done. We've labored for you. And he said to them, come away to a deserted place all by yourselves and rest a while. And it wasn't a suggestion. And the way this is written in the Greek language in the New Testament, that's a command. It's an imperative. He said, rest. And here's what he said, for many were coming and going and they had no leisure to even eat.

They were working so hard. They didn't even have time to eat. And they were so proud of that, that they came to Jesus and said, look what we've done. And Jesus said, you're missing the mark. Like I didn't create you just to work. I created you to enjoy life. And he wanted them to rest. So the first question I ask is my perspective, right? When you're thinking about, I cross the line, do I have a right perspective towards rest? Do I see rest as weakness? Do I see rest as

time that I'm wasting. Do I see rest as invaluable or with the same value and diligence I place on work, do I place that same priority on rest?

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Let

me interrupt you real quick to two thoughts on that. One is you mentioned this badge of honor we wear and you and I've had conversations like this. We've both been there. And as I think I said in one of the prior episodes is the only people that can remember in our life, how many hours we worked are the ones we love most. Nobody else cares. But we wear this as like this performance based badge of honor. The other thing that we'll end up talking more about this podcast is you emphasize the importance of rest. But I think for the entrepreneur, the busy realtor, whoever's listening,

Oftentimes it's work, work, work, work, work, and I'm going to rest just so I avoid burnout because I'm done and the whole time you're resting, you're talking yourself out of quitting your. What would you say to that?

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Right, that's right.

rest can't be the emergency button. It can't be something I do in crisis. It can't be the last resort. It has to be a rhythm of life. ⁓ I'm in airplanes in airports all the time, every week. And occasionally I'm, I was there the last two weeks. I flew into Atlanta on a Sunday and I walked past the Chick-fil-A stand on Sunday at

And every. The first thing I do is get annoyed because Chick-fil-A is not open. think those doggone Christians, man, who are they? But I mean, seriously think about this. Has anybody made more money with a simpler plan? Let's fry a piece of chicken, put it on bread with a pickle and sell it. And now billions of dollars, billions of dollars. There are fast food chains all across the country that can't do in seven days.

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First thing you're annoyed.

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what they're doing in six. He built a principle of rest. Don't tell me you can't be successful and build rest as a rhythm. Rest can't be a last resort. Rest has to be a rhythm. So first question is, my perspective right? Second question is my posture right? And by that, I mean, is my work done in dependence on the Lord or independent?

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it exists.

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from the Lord. Paul is my favorite Bible character for a lot of reasons. ⁓ I mean, obviously other than Jesus, obviously Jesus is the best, but Paul is my favorite non Jesus character in the Bible. ⁓ I love Paul, but my life mirrors Paul's. Paul was a church planter. Paul traveled all the time. ⁓

Paul is just somebody that I feel like I'm kind of cut out of Paul's cloth. Paul sometimes rub people the wrong way because he was such the driven entrepreneurial starter ⁓ that Paul didn't have time for people at times. He just left them behind because if you're not all in, you're not going with me. I just really identify with Paul. He worked hard, he accomplished much, he planted many churches. The guy wrote two thirds of the books of the New Testament.

the best-selling book of all time. He wrote two thirds of the books in the New Testament. But listen to the way he describes his work in Colossians chapter one. He said, so we tell others about Christ, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom that God has given us. We want to present them to God perfect in their relationship with God. I mean, you can hear the standard that he set is high. He said, that's why I work and struggle so hard.

That phrase in the Greek language means literally to work yourself to weariness, to work yourself to exhaustion, depending on Christ's mighty power that works in me. His posture was I'm working, but I'm working in his strength. I'm working.

independence. Paul labored independence on God's spirit within him. I call that working out of the overflow. The primary call of my life is not to do something for God. The primary call of my life is to be with God and allow him to work in and through me. So is my posture right? Think about this. God, you said it, he created everything. He created us as humans, but he didn't create human doings. He created human beings, meaning what we do flows out of who we are.

Too many entrepreneurs, too many business leaders, what they do defines who they are. And that's when my posture's not right. So is my posture right? Do I have a right heart of dependence on the Lord? I'm laboring, but I'm laboring in His power and His strength. Third question is, is my passion right? When I've crossed the line, I can always feel it because it feels like work.

and not the passion that gives me joy. When you love what you do, you've heard the adage, you know, when somebody loves what they do, they never go to work a day in their life. When I've crossed the line, I love what I do. But when I've crossed the line, what I do begins to feel like work. And when my passion isn't right, I know I've, it's for me, is it my perspective right? Is my posture right?

is my passion, right? And if my passion's not there, I know I've crossed the line and I need to get back in balance.

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That's good. I was going to specifically ask you a question like how do we know we're moving from that's that I want to steward everything that he's entrusted me with that diligence versus that chasing the chasing success. I think you just said it. It's when you wake up one day and you're like, man, this is work.

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When I'm working out of the overflow of his strength in me, it's joy. When I'm not, it's drudgery. It's the same thing. You know, you, you've heard me teach this, Matt. There's a verse in Matthew chapter 11, where Jesus said, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I'll give you rest. He said, take my yoke upon you and learn from me for my yoke is easy and my burdens light. Here are those three words, rest, easy and light. When we're following Jesus.

fully engaged in what he's called us to do, which means hard work, effort. It should be rest, easy and light. Even while we're working. And when I'm not there, it's work, it's hard and it's heavy. It's not rest, easy and light. It's work hard and heavy. When my passion gets out of balance, it's when I'm not doing it out of the overflow of intimacy with him, walking in fellowship with him. And that always leads me to adding stuff to my agenda that he didn't want me to put there. ⁓

⁓ and then I began to feel overwhelmed and overworked.

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And we're going to get right into that. But you know, you, it's interesting you bring that up because for our listeners, you heard me share it in the first three episodes on my burden really for starting this podcast. But, but part of that is aligning your faith and a bigger purpose through your business because you know, one life listener, if you don't have that, then you're not going to find easy light rest. You're not going to find that in your work. So, so it's got to be aligned with, with those bigger things.

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Yeah, it's honestly one of the greatest messages that I think I can give to somebody that's not a follower of Christ. Like, I don't think I can tell you how to experience that apart from him. Like, it's not like he's a way, he's the way. There's no way to experience the kind of fullness and joy and satisfaction in life apart from him. You you mentioned a second ago, what are kind some of the warning signs that...

and you said I'd kind of already answered it and I have, but so I want to just give you four statements though. These are warning signs that you've shifted into that chasing success model. Number one, my devotional life is squeezed in instead of my day being ordered around it. When my time with him is squeezed in instead of ordering my day around it, I know I'm chasing. Number two, my joy is diminishing and I'm feeling the burn. Number three,

My family is not my priority. When I'm chasing, my family begins to get squeezed in here. Don't forget this. There can be other jobs, but there's only one family. You don't get a do over with that. And number four, I know I'm chasing when my margin is gone. When I don't have white space built into my calendar daily. Those are some of the warning signs.

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You earlier you talked about, ⁓ we joked about the impact I'm trying to have nationally now and a lot of that's from your teaching. But I told you once that, you know the sign of a good mentor when you can't tell where the mentor stops and the mentee begins. But I literally just taught a webinar about ordering our life around that, which is most important instead of including it in our day. And I even talked about, you know, pray daily, date weekly, like the whole dynamic. That's good. So it's good stuff, bro. So let's move on. Our audience, of course, is made up of a lot of realtors, entrepreneurs, leaders.

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I've heard that before. You have.

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but people who are hardwired to fill their schedules up and you just started to touch on it. And it's almost as if like the fuller my schedule is the better chance I have of being successful. Realtors specifically who is a large part of our audience, there's 2 million Realtors in the country. But we even have a saying in our industry is he or she with the most appointments wins. But the problem, the burden that comes with that is we so often fill our schedules to your point.

where we walk past so many opportunities, you could call them divine appointments or just opportunities to encourage somebody, to see somebody where they are, sometimes people very important to us. and I've always said, man, one of my biggest goals would be to one day be available. Like, what would it be like to be truly available? Because if I'm honest, I'm not. I mean, so often I'm just, too busy to probably see a need and meet a need in those things. So.

And you said something years ago that stuck with me. You quoted, I don't know who ever said it originally, but the quote was, no other success can compensate for failure in the home.

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Andy Stanley is who I heard say it first. I don't know if he said it originally, but that's who I heard say it.

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And the other thing you said too is, is talking about the schedule. You said if, if you don't have time in your day to be interrupted, then there's stuff on your plate that, that God did not intend to be there. And that was a powerful statement that stuck with me. So my question for you is for the person listening right now who feels like their schedule has to be that full for them to earn the income they need. Yeah. It's, hard for them to even see how they could do it otherwise.

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say?

Yeah. Again, I'm going to do some of these in rhythms of threes, but I'm going to give you three things. First, I would say that every one of us should evaluate what we need. Right. And if you're just listening and not watching, I did that in air quotes because we just have a wrong view of need versus want. In our culture in America, we have so many things in the need category.

that really belong in the want category. There's another verse in scripture, first Timothy chapter six, verse eight that says, if we have food and clothing with these, we should be content. food and clothing, I know somebody may hear that and go, well, what about a house, a place to live? So the word food here is a word that means everything necessary from a sustenance standpoint to support physical life.

The word clothing is a Greek word that means everything necessary to protect us physically. It's a word that means covering. So with that food and clothing, what he's really talking about there are the basic necessities of life. What I need to live from a physical standpoint and what I need to protect me, a home, a shelter, clothes. And what the Bible says is when I have those things, I should be content. A need is something that makes life possible. A want,

is something that makes life easier. A lot of people's schedule is so busy because they've put in the need category, what's in the want category, and they're chasing things that make life easier. Now, wants and needs are going to vary from culture to culture. For example, in some cultures, having a car is not a need. In other cultures, having a car is a need. So,

I'm not being hard. fact, you got to determine before the Lord what's in the want category, what's in the need category. ⁓

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Well, I think it's hard to interrupt you, but you just talked about Proverbs be wise enough to know when to quit. That's it. And something if I haven't mentioned in the podcast before, I will. But there's this idea of if we're constantly trying to raise our standard of living dollar for dollar as we raise our income, we're never going to be at a point where we can be present. Right.

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Yes. ⁓ Matt, you know me. I've traveled around. I've been at 42 countries around the world. I've seen people that don't have any of the things that we say we have to have in America to be successful. And they are some of the happiest, most joyful, ⁓ most fulfilled families. ⁓ There's their cultures of honor and respect where generation to generation truths are passed down. ⁓

We've just confused this thing of wants and needs. And if we're not satisfied with what we have, we won't be satisfied when we get what we don't have. It's a ladder that every time you get to the next rung, there's a little something above you that you think, if I just got that.

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chasing this horizon that just keeps moving.

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it. And so you got to determine what are the ones, because I mean, let's be honest, both of us probably today have more than our parents did and more than we maybe ever dreamed we would have.

So are we content with that? ⁓ Now, it doesn't mean it's wrong if you wind up with more. That just can't be my motive. My motive can't be always driven by want. I need to be content. I need to be a steward of the opportunities entrusted to me. Now, if that produces more, fine, but that can't be the goal. I've gotta first differentiate between wants and needs.

Because if I don't answer that question, I'm always going to be, because it's a cup with a hole in the bottom of it. The more you fill it, the emptier it becomes because it just constantly drains out. And so you're always chasing. So the wants and need things, you have to determine that you have to determine when enough is enough. And then you begin, okay, so if I do have more, now I get to give away more. Now I get to invest more in others. Now I get to be more a conduit of resources into the lives of other people. ⁓

So, so that's the first thing. Second, ⁓ if we're going to get to that place where we feel like our schedules, just, we have to fill it to meet the need. The second thing you got to is you got to count the cost. And what I mean by that is when it comes to my schedule, every yes is a no to something. To put something in my schedule today and say yes to this, I'm saying no to something else.

And the question becomes, is what I'm saying yes to more important than what I'm saying no to? When you're so filling your schedule, driven by what you consider to be needs that I gotta have this stuff, you're saying no to some stuff. And I'm telling you, I've been a pastor for 32 years. One of the things about being a pastor that I've done way more than I ever want to do in my life is I've stood in rooms with people as they breathe their last breath.

I've done it way. I've been at funerals, but I'm telling you, I've been in the room when people breathe their last breath and watched him leave this life and go into the next one. I've never had one person say, I wish I could have got one more car.

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or sold another half.

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I wish I could have sold another house. I wish I could have added on to this house. I wish I could have had one more dollar in my savings account. I wish I could have had a better performing portfolio. Every one of them was about time with the people that they love. Every time. I wish I had more time with my grandkids. I wish I had more time with my wife. I wish I had more time with my husband. wish I had more time with my kids. I wish I had more time with my friends. wish I had more time with my small group.

every single time. So when it comes to schedule, if you're one of those people that thinks you got to fill your schedule to the point that it's ridiculous because of the need of your income, you're saying no to some stuff and you're going to get to the end of your life. And I promise you, you're going to have regret because you didn't count the cost. You're sacrificing with that. No, some valuable time that you can't get back. ⁓ so

First, you got to evaluate wants and needs. Second, you got to count the cost. Third, you need to ask the question, is this a season or do I need to adjust my lifestyle? Right? There are going to be some seasons in life. I was in one when I was in my early twenties, my wife and I had gotten married. We had two kids. I was pastoring a church. I was going to school full time. I left my house every morning at 6 a.m. drove 90 miles to my school where I was in seminary.

I would get back from school about three o'clock in the afternoon, three o'clock to six o'clock. I was at the office leading our staff team six to eight. was with my family eight to one in the morning. did classwork six AM the next morning. I'm on the road again. I did that for three years. Is that sustainable? No, but it was a season. It was a season that my wife and I went in together knowing was going to be hard and unsustainable.

but something that we knew and had calculated the cost for a short season. Now, even though we knew it and calculated the costs, it probably took my wife and I 10 years to get over those three years. And what I mean by that is my wife became very independent. She learned, she had to, she had to make decisions without me because I wasn't there a lot. And it took us for 10 years. I would come in and want to talk about a decision. And she was like, I made that decision because

She got in a rhythm of doing some things where we weren't making decisions and that's not her fault. That's my fault. But the question is, is this a season or is this life? And I need to make some adjustments to my life. It's okay to have some seasons where the schedule is intense. You got to have some accountability to say, Vance, you're not in a season, you're in a lifestyle and you need to radically adjust your lifestyle.

⁓ The quote, you mentioned the quote that I made. Here's the literal quote that I said when I taught it in the sermon that you're thinking about. If you have more on your schedule today than you can possibly accomplish, then you have things on your schedule that God didn't put there. ⁓ Because He's not going to give you more today than you can accomplish. Now, it doesn't mean if I've got a 10-year plan, I'm going to get it all done today. But what needs to be done today for that 10-year plan?

And a part of that is building in white space that allows for interruptions because that's who Jesus was. I mean, some of the most defining moments in scripture were when Jesus was interrupted. Zacchaeus, the woman at the well, Nicodemus, all these were, we would call them interruptions, but Jesus didn't see them as interruptions. Jesus saw them as divine appointments, opportunities to be about the Father's business.

And if my schedule is so slim and here's the thing about us, people that are wired like us, Matt, we'll never say it out loud, but we like it when people look at our schedule and see it so busy. Like I love it when somebody looks over my shoulder and looks at my calendar and like, dang, there's like a little bit of me on the inside. That's like, yeah, that a boy like you're doing it right. Um, and we never going to say that out loud, but it's the gospel truth. We take pride in how busy we are.

Nobody had more to accomplish in a lifetime than Jesus. Nobody.

(: 35:30

You mentioned busy and I didn't plan on bringing this up, but something that has really been on my mind recently, there's a, so there's a, there's a entrepreneurship coach out there, his name is Rory Baden. Rory, if you see this, shout out to you, love your books. But he talks about this idea of significance. Significance is giving ourselves the emotional permission to work on things today that make tomorrow easier or better. Anything other than that's an distraction. Well, as I started to dwell on this in light of my faith,

I started to recognize that spiritual warfare isn't just attacking my marriage or my business or my health, these big things. It's literally the daily details of my schedule. Because if he can keep me distracted from doing the most significant thing that God has planned a purpose for me, he's okay with that. Because I'm not going to move the needle and have the impact that God has equipped me to have.

(: 36:21

Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of people think that the enemy is only about us doing evil. He doesn't care. He doesn't care if we're strung out on drugs in the street, addicted to everything that the world can throw at us, or we're just trying to be the best person as long as it's not Jesus and what Jesus has for us. He doesn't care.

(: 36:44

So good. So moving on, I have looked up to you for years, you know, as a pastor, mentor, leader, friend, so many different areas. But one of the things I've always admired is just how you've modeled being a husband and a father. know, I'm a few years behind you and just kind of was a young father as you were kind of more in the thick of it and in watching that. So two things come to mind I want to ask you. The first is many years ago, and I brought this up to you before, but you were on stage many years ago. And I remember you and your dad were both being interviewed about ⁓

two generations of ministry and impact and so forth. But you were asked a question and the question was along the lines of, what do you worry about the most? And your answer was something to the effect of that I save the whole world or I help thousands of people, but yet my own kids, yet miss it. So do you remember that?

(: 37:31

Yeah.

moment? I do. were sitting at Green Valley Baptist Church on a stage and was asked that question. And it literally was something that, and you know, I hesitate to say worry or fear, but it was, it was a, it was a concern in my soul that, cause I'd watched a lot of guys that do what I do, who lead successful ministries and they got a kid or two that's far from God or that's way out there. And I just thought, man, I don't really care if we win the world, if we don't win our kids. Like, ⁓ I want to see my kids. And I mean,

Now the joy for me is I have four adult kids ⁓ and it was a journey for each one of them. ⁓ But I got four adult kids that all, man, they love Jesus. They love their spouse. They're walking with God. They are leveraging their job skill and passion where they some are in ministry, some are in vocation, but they're all seeking first the kingdom ⁓ and consider, Christian and I consider ourselves enormously blessed.

for where we are this season of our life with our kids.

(: 38:35

So, you you're a pastor for these years when you're raising your kids and whether you're leading a church or leading a business, entrepreneurship is entrepreneurship to some extent. But so often, just like your responsibilities or my responsibilities is we're constantly prioritizing our clients or a congregation or whatever that is, we're pouring into them, we're serving them, we're meeting their needs. And so often our family's getting the leftovers. How did you navigate that season?

(: 39:04

Yeah. So, I give it to you in a few statements. First of all, you got to develop convictions. ⁓ and by convictions, I mean, for me, the order was Jesus, then family, then the work. ⁓ those convictions have got to be established. You got to know what those are. You're never going to hit a target you're not aiming at. Let me say that another way. You might hit it occasionally a target you're not aiming at, but you're not going to consistently.

hit a target that you're not aiming at. And for a lot of people, they haven't defined what the priorities are. They don't know what the convictions are that are driving those decisions. Now, I like to say this with values drive our decisions and decisions shape our lives. So what are the things that you value? That's what I mean by convictions. What are the values for me? My relationship with Christ, everything rises and falls on my relationship with him. So that's first. My wife is not first. Christ is first.

but I can only love her the way that he's called me to love her if I have Christ first in my life. The love that I have for her, I don't have the capacity to do that apart from him and me. So it's Christ first, then it's my family, my wife first, and then my kids. That's another one a lot of people get out of balance. They so prioritize the kids. The greatest thing you can do for your kids is have a loving relationship with your spouse. That's where they find stability and health.

We live in a generation now, Matt, where the generation that's coming up now has more anxiety issues than ⁓ any generation in the past. And I think one of the reasons is because this is one of the first and second generations of people that have been raised in broken families. Now, I'm not throwing rocks at broken families. They're going to be brokenness in families. But if you go back 50 years in the United States of America,

The divorce rate has skyrocketed in the last 50 years in the United States. ⁓ And one of the things that brings stability to children, knowing that the world is going to be okay tomorrow is that mom and dad are healthy and in love and the family's at whole. Now, again, there's brokenness that happens and the beauty of Jesus, God can make beautiful masterpieces out of broken pieces. So it doesn't mean life is over when that happens. There's opportunities, but it's about putting him first. Then my wife and I,

then the kids, then the work. Work has to always become the caboose and not the engine that's driving the train. have a good friend, you've heard him preach, J.D. Greer. J.D.'s wife, made this statement one time and I wrote it down. I've never forgotten it. Listen to what she said, man, you're going to love this. Fame is making yourself accessible to a bunch of people that you don't really care about.

at the expense of those you do. And I was like, ouch. ⁓ But when you don't have convictions and values that drive your decisions, you're going to always drift. We're going to pursue that. We're going to check. So number one, develop convictions. Number two, you got to establish priorities based on those convictions. It's one thing to have the conviction. It's something else to then build my schedule around that.

So like, for example, with my wife, marriage is important. So we had a plan. You almost recited it a minute ago. Here's the plan that I've always had for my wife and I, and the one that we teach others that we get to disciple. Pray daily, either with them or for them. Date weekly, every week, some kind of a date night. Escape monthly. That's kind of an all day date once a month we try to do. Get away quarterly, which is an overnight or a weekend once a quarter, and then retreat annually.

we try to spend several nights up to a week away, just us every year. Now we do that now we're blessed with a lot more resources than we used to have. ⁓ back in the day, we still did this. We just did it on the cheap. We did it in ways that you can get creative and figure that was part of the fun of it was figuring out how to do it without any money.

(: 43:08

You

have resources and no kids in the home. Exactly.

(: 43:09

Actually,

now it's a lot. Now we can do this without going anywhere. We don't have to spend any money. ⁓ But, but, but we, why, why was that plan there? That plan was not there because it was cute or tried or fun to repeat. It was there because of the convictions that we'd established. can't say marriage is the priority and everything falls or all the other relationships in human form rise and fall in my relationship to my spouse and not build a plan in your schedule. That's like saying I'm going to be the most successful real estate agent in Las Vegas.

and not putting any real estate appointments in your calendar. Like it's not going to happen. So you have to be intentional with my kids, for example, with my kids based on those convictions that they were important. We built a plan. I knew some things. Number one, I knew my relationship with my children was the training ground for their relationship with God. They were going to learn how to relate to their heavenly father by the way they related to their earthly father.

that I was laying the foundation in their life for the way they were going to relate to God. And there's a verse in Deuteronomy where the Bible says this in Deuteronomy 6, you'll love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Then he says, these words, which I'm commanding you today shall be on your heart and you shall teach them diligently to your sons. When you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, when you rise up, what's he talking about there? He's not talking about formal times of Bible instruction. He says, Hey, when you sit in your house,

When you're hanging out, when you're walking, by the way, when you're in transit between one place, just using the everyday rhythms of life to begin to teach my kids and to pour into my kids. Why? Because they were going to learn how to relate to God the way they related to me. the greatest lessons you'll teach your kids will not be informal settings of instruction. They'll be in the informal activities of life. Uh, my son and I, Caleb, our oldest son, we were sitting on a pool one day. He was junior in high school and he says, dad,

I don't think this was no, we weren't doing a Bible study. We're in a pool, just me and him hanging out at night. He says, dad, I don't think I believe in Jesus. I don't think I believe the Bible. I don't think I believe any of this stuff that we've taught at church. And obviously inside my insides are like wanting to explode. Right. But in that moment, he's learning how to relate to God by the way I relate to him. And I said, Caleb, you need to know something.

I want you to know Jesus. want you to love Jesus, but you're my son.

And I'm going to love you whether you love and follow him or not, because you're my son. Now Caleb's 30 years old. He's a doctor of physical therapy in Atlanta at a hospital. He's a Christ follower. He's married. Caleb's probably the most evangelistic kid in our family sharing Christ with other people. And he tells me, dad, it was that night in the pool that you just set me free to go figure it out.

On my own. I didn't plan that night to have some life changing moment with my son, but I was there. And if I hadn't been there that night, ⁓ I don't know where he'd be today, but that's where he is because of that. So you got to build these things in, ⁓ didn't mean to get emotional on that, it, it, ⁓

(: 46:37

It's That's beautiful.

(: 46:40

If I hadn't had the conviction that they mattered and built into my schedule time to be there, I'd have missed that moment. And I don't know where my son would be today, but he was learning how to relate to God by the way I related to him. And the fact that I didn't put expectation on him, I let him be who he was and loved him anyway. That's the unconditional love of the father that I've learned from the father that I experienced on a daily. God didn't look to me today to perform for him.

He loves me because I'm his. And I get to serve him and love him and honor him. But I don't do that because I have to. I do that because I want to because of what I've learned about him. ⁓ So the other thing I had to learn about my kids is my primary responsibility was to shepherd their heart. And you do that in two ways. You do that by setting an example and by setting boundaries. And you can't set an example if you're not there. And you can't enforce boundaries if you're not in their lives. Kids need

boundaries. They're looking for boundaries and too many parents today want to be their kids buddy. When what they need to be is their parent and establish boundaries. If you will be your parent, if you will be your child's parent at this season, they'll be your best friends in the next season. My wife and I, some of our best friends now are our kids. We do stuff all the time. We go to dinner, we date together, we go on vacations together with our kids. ⁓ And I can promise you,

when they were 12, 13, 14, 15, they never dreamed that day was coming because they did not see me as their friend. They saw me as their parent. But if you'll, if you try to be their best friend now, you'll never have their respect in the next season of life because they need boundaries. ⁓ and the last thing I'd say about the kids thing is as a parent rules without relationship always leads to rebellion. ⁓ if all you are is the authoritarian rule, but there's no relationship.

that always leads to rebellion. Rules need relationship for those rules to be fleshed out because sometimes the rule needs to get bent. The relationship will show you times when the rule needs to bend. But if all it is is a rule, then you don't have opportunities for that. So you got to develop convictions. Then you got to establish priorities based on those convictions building life. And then third, you need to engage accountability to hold you to your convictions. ⁓

I needed some people in my life and I've had them throughout the years. have three people now in my life who at any given time can throw the flag and say, Vance, you need to be home. You need to say no to this event. You need to not put this in your schedule. You need accountability because here's the deal. My flesh is wired to perform. I'm wired to do something. And if I don't have some accountability, I'll drift, even though I have the convictions and I have the priorities based on the convictions, my flesh will drift away from them without accountability to hold me to it.

(: 49:30

So good, man. ⁓ This is so rich and man, we might release this as two episodes. I don't want to rush through this, but ⁓ I want to get to the book, The Stressless Life that you wrote. But before that, the second part of that family question was, there was a season where you were mentoring me with a group of smaller, a smaller group of men. And I remember I was a young father and I asked you a question along the lines of, I see some of the people in my life, their kids get older and man, they're just solid.

You'd like, thank God, right? And some of them, they just go off the rocker and do go off the rails and not by any stretch. Did you have perfect children? Nobody does. But I asked you, you know, what's the difference? And your answer to me was another question. You said, Matt, let me ask you a question about your father. Was your dad the same dad at home as he was at church, as he was on the ball field, as he was at work and all the things? And I said, yeah, absolutely. And you emphasize this idea of authenticity in leadership and parenting. Can you just expand on that just a bit?

(: 50:26

Kids smell fake a mile away. Like if, if you are one way at the house and then you get in front of other people and you're another way, I'm just telling you, your kids won't want anything to do with you. A child's ability to love is rooted in their ability to respect. And if they don't respect you as a person, they won't be able to love you as a person.

⁓ my wife and I, you met, know, me as, as good as most people would know, like I am not a perfect person. I got my warts. got my inconsistencies. got my failures. I got my weaknesses that I got to work on just like anybody's I've been transparent about you and you've, you've, you've heard them and you've seen them and you've experienced them at times. but I try to be the same inconsistent person at home that I am out in the, in the world.

I didn't ever want my kids to hear something in the pulpit and go, yeah, that's not true. one of the greatest joys of my life is that my kids all tell me that I'm one of their favorite preachers. ⁓

Because the sermon is not just what comes out of your mouth behind a pulpit. A sermon is wrapped in the life that you live. The Bible said that Jesus spoke as one who had authority. One of the things that gave it the authority was people watched him. And when he spoke, he wasn't just saying something that was from here. He was saying something that was from here.

And my kids have grown up with me and they know I'm not perfect. I've had to say, I'm sorry to my kids a bunch of times. I've had to ask their forgiveness a bunch of times. ⁓

But ⁓ I think they would all say, I am who I am. Like, ⁓ and their mom's the same way. Like Christie is the same person at our house that she is on a stage or in a crowd of people. ⁓ and I think in leadership, authenticity is one of the defining marks of real leadership. People will follow because

Authenticity leads to respect. And when I know somebody's real man, I just respect them. And when I respect somebody, I will follow them. Like you got my, I'll go where you say, if I respect you. And I just think authenticity matters that much. And I think it matters in family. I also think it matters in, in business. ⁓ Man, we've all had those interactions with real estate agents, car salesmen.

lawyers, whatever, where you were dealing with a paid salesman. Yeah. And you were had those where you're dealing with a satisfied customer, you know, and that's what I once wanted to be as a preacher. I didn't want to be seen as a paid salesman. I wanted to be seen as a satisfied customer. Like what I'm telling you, I'm telling you cause I believe it myself. Right. Like I've experienced it myself and authenticity. When I find that in a real setting, like dude, one of the reasons that I've

Bolton sold a number of homes with you and recommended, I don't even know how many people to your business through the years is because I know you. I respect you. And I know the way people are going to be treated when they deal with metformin because I've been treated like that and that matters. ⁓ And I'll follow that.

(: 54:08

That's good, man. Well, we're gonna, I wanna get to your book. So two kind of questions to get there, kind of moving this towards that harmony between work and life is you have spent so many years pastoring, leading, mentoring leaders. A lot of your time has spent developing church planners or basically the entrepreneur who's in the build it phase, in the trenches really having to roll up the sleeves, work their tail off. What do you see as a common struggle for

men and women in that situation to make sure they're still prioritizing who and what matters most in their life, not just the work.

(: 54:45

I would say what I see as most common is this is not something that you figure out and move on. This is something that I have to deal with day by day. It's not like 20 years ago, I figured this out and now I've moved past it. I have to battle this today. Moment by moment, it's a choice to either be consumed by the chase

or keep living out of the priorities and convictions that I've established. And I'm just telling you, my flesh is wired in such a way that I want to perform. want to do something. ⁓ and so I'll always have to come back and revisit this lesson over and over and over again. I've had to learn this lesson and we'll talk about it as much as you want to. I've had to learn this lesson a very hard way, ⁓ through some real valleys in my life that I had to go through. But at the same time,

I still have to learn this lesson every single day, every day. It's about a choice. And so what I would say is, is most common is that, that this is just going to be something in high capacity driven leaders. You're going to have to be having this conversation over and over and over and over. You don't beat this and put it to bed and you're done.

(: 56:02

always say there's no PhD in harmony between work and life. It's a daily intention. It's looking at this, ordering our life around that, which is most important.

(: 56:10

That's it. Yesterday's grace is not sufficient for today's battle. I'm going to have to battle it again today. And so today I need to get before the Lord, get my heart right, get my priorities in line and make sure that I'm ordering my steps today around those priorities.

(: 56:30

So good. let's transition to kind of a couple questions in one. I'm curious in your, you know, multiple generations of impact, again, global impact, eternal impact. I'm curious a season where you maybe felt like Balance was most out of whack versus when you feel like Harmony has really been at its best between your work and your personal life. But also just kind of a couple questions in one. You've written some great books. Unburdened was your first book. Highly recommend it to the listener.

That was really just kind of the foundational of what you preach about a lot, which is moving from a burden of this idea of religion to the freedom and joy we have in an authentic relationship with Jesus, that it's his life, pressed out through our life. Listener, you'll hear me talk about that, you probably already have. ⁓ But then you wrote The Stressless Life. And I'm curious between the first question, you you mentioned valleys a minute ago, peaks and valleys, we all experience those. But what led to The Stressless Life? Tell us a little bit more about that book.

(: 57:29

So ⁓ I'll answer the second part of the question first. by saying that the best that I think I've ever lived that balance in my life, honestly, is now. I think I've reached an age and a stage in my life and career where I now know and am confident in who God made me to be. know what I'm good at. I know where my strengths lie. I know what I'm not good at. I know where my weaknesses are and where my strengths don't lie.

And I've been able now at a place in my life to order my life and my vocation around the things that I believe I'm the best at. work as hard as I ever have worked. I lead the largest organization. I lead an organization now that spans North America, Canada, United States, Puerto Rico. have 300 employees that report up to us. We have a $70 million budget. ⁓ last year I spoke more times, than I did my last full-time year as a pastor. Like I had, I had,

alendar is booked out through: 2026

Where the game slows down. They may call it something different, but you've seen, you've seen that defensive scheme a hundred times. And so he knows before the balls ever snap, that's where he's going. This where he's going. And he, mean, for you, know you're a big Kansas city guy. He said, my homes is kind of there now where the game has slowed down for him, where they just see things other people don't see. What is that? It's time and experience in the seat.

(: 59:02

I'm picturing the bullet coming

(: 59:26

They know what they're good at. They know how to execute the plays that best perform with what they're good at. And I think all of us reach a stage in our career, our vocation, our calling, where you get there. And I feel like that's where I am right now. I've gotten to this place where I think I know what to say no to. Cause I know there are other people that can do that better than me. And I don't feel like I have to prove to anybody that I can do that. I think I know what I'm good at. I think what I'm good at is good enough.

I think I've hit that season right now where I think I'm living the best work-life balance ⁓ that I've ever had, even though I'm working as hard on having maybe as large of an impact as I've ever had. ⁓ The worst is where the book came from.

(: 1:00:11

And before you get into the book, listeners, this should peak, like the name of the book is The Stressless Life. So for the realtor, entrepreneur, whoever you are listening to this, stress less and entrepreneurship, business owning, real estate, those do not go the same

(: 1:00:25

And you got to say it's not some people say it and they actually think it's two words the stress less life, but that's it's no it's it's one word stressless. Yes, the stressless life. Yes, the promise of scripture Jesus in the New Testament in Philippians chapter four. ⁓ The scripture says be be anxious for nothing. word anxious there is the word that means stress worry anxiety and Jesus said be anxious for nothing.

be anxious for nothing. That's an imperative, meaning it's a command. Meaning to be anxious, to stress, to worry is actually a sin.

So to please him, I'm not to stress. I'm not to be worried. I'm not be anxious for nothing. He said, but in everything through prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God. And then he said this, the peace of God, which passes all comprehension, guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Here's the dichotomy. Here's the paradox. In every moment of life, I have an opportunity to experience one of two things, either stress, worry, anxiety, or the peace of God. You can't have the peace of God.

and anxiety. The peace of God eliminates that. And it's a peace. love what he said that passes all comprehension. Here's what that means. You can't really explain it. Like I can't tell you, I shouldn't have this peace because the schedule is falling apart. The deal just fell through. The bottom just fell out of this opportunity. I shouldn't have this peace, but I do because I'm in now there. Do I have, is that a daily moment by moment thing too? Absolutely. And for me, Matt, where it came from,

urch in Las Vegas. started in: 2000

d you could work. And, um, in: 2013

put a sentence together that you're talking about somebody who literally speaks 40, 45 minutes multiple times every week for a living. And I couldn't put a sentence together. couldn't find my brain, couldn't find words and get them to my mouth. And I just, all I could say was, I'm going to go take a nap. Went upstairs 6.30 PM went to bed and did not wake up for eight days. I slept for eight straight days.

Uh, Christie would come wake me up, try to get me to eat food. didn't eat anything, lost 19 pounds in eight days. Um, she finally drug me out of bed to a doctor's office. My doctor said I had a physical version of a mental breakdown. And what that means is my body finally said, Oh, you're going to rest. God created us to work in the rest. He put Adam in a garden, but one of the original commandments was rest. Like he commanded us to rest and.

we're made to create and to work and to start, but we're also made to rest. And when you don't keep that balance, your body will shut down and my body shut down. My body stopped. and it was at that point I had to do, you know, when I, when the iPhones first came out years ago, ⁓ started using the iPhones and I was tough with technology. And when something wasn't right, my kids would always say, well, the only thing you can do is you can turn it off and turn it back on to just what they call the hard reset.